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Scale motorcycle modeling topics.
Tamiya 1/12 Honda RC 166
rdt1953
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Posted: Monday, November 05, 2018 - 11:13 AM UTC
Hi to all -
Hope to be starting this in a few weeks -Tamiya's 1/12 Honda
RC 166. This will be a bit of a discipline test for me . I have been a modeler all my life of all subjects and genres with most of my recent efforts 1/48 Japanese aircraft . While I have been involved with real motorcycles for over 50 years I have yet to complete a model of one . I don't know why but I have a few starts spanning many years that await completion. Perhaps with the Kitmaker family watching I will be compelled to finally finish one.



This seems to be another of Tamiya's wonders. I have purchased all four accessory detail sets . These include a tiny rivet set for the fairing and seat ,
a set for the forks that includes photo etch clutch basket and separate friction and drive plates, a wheel set with turned flanged alloy rims and individual wire spokes and nipples that must be laced just like the real thing on included fixtures and a photo etch final drive chain that must be assembled link by link and supposedly fully functional .

I have long considered the RC 166 to be the most amazing motorcycle ever built. Honda built this GP racer in the mid sixties to compete with the dominant 2 strokes of the era . Soichiro Honda was committed to 4 stroke technology - ( He later caved in a bit and built two stroke off road bikes ) - because he felt strongly about their cleaner emissions and lower fuel consumption. Because a 2 stroke produces power with every revolution and a 4 stroke every other , generally speaking the only way to make a 4 stroke competitive is to double the rpm. Honda sought to achieve this by reducing reciprocating mass and this means small components . The answer was and still is many tiny cylinders, valves and pistons.
So became the RC 166 - a 60 horsepower 250cc DOHC 4 valve per cylinder inline six that did 150 mph . In it's second season in the very capable hands of Mike Hailwood it won 10 of 10 GP's and also gave Mike one of his 14 titles at the Isle of Man TT. All of this in an era that predated computer aided design and machining. To think that Honda bashing is prevalent among a certain group is amusing to me.

If you have not done so , give yourself a treat and google this machine-
several videos demonstrate it running at 18,000 rpm ( yes that is correct 18 THOUSAND rpm) -it will make your ears bleed and there is even a clip of a complete tear down on a Japanese TV program !



Cheers ! Richard
Cosimodo
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Auckland, New Zealand
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Posted: Tuesday, November 06, 2018 - 06:43 PM UTC
I am looking forward to this Richard. The thought of a six cylinder 250 these days would be crazy but Honda were certainly innovative. Do you have the option in the box to build it as Mike the Bike's machine?

cheers
Michael
rdt1953
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Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2018 - 12:56 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I am looking forward to this Richard. The thought of a six cylinder 250 these days would be crazy but Honda were certainly innovative. Do you have the option in the box to build it as Mike the Bike's machine?

cheers
Michael



Hi Michael - As you may be aware Honda only campaigned these exotic machines for one more season- 1967 - and then withdrew from GP racing because the governing body (FIM ?) changed the rules to limit the number of cylinders in an effort to keep it more affordable for privateers . Sadly we will likely never see these jewels again.
Markings are included for Mike Haiwoods mounts - numbers but somewhat disappointingly no rider name for the windscreen.
Thanks for the interest - I hope I can do it justice .
Richard
Joel_W
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Posted: Thursday, November 15, 2018 - 08:40 AM UTC
Richard,
I can't believe that I take a few days off from checking to see if you've posted your introduction post as yet, and here it is. So I'm officially late to the party once again. But I promise to stay extra late to make up the time

Without a single doubt, this is going to be a spectacular build to the highest degree Mr. Tamiya ever thought that his creation would reach. Your skills at the bench clearly dictate such a build.

I'm really looking forward to watching you lace though spoke wheels, as well as the rest of the AM, especially all that PE.

As for the FIM, which as to be the little brother of the FIA, changing the engine rules was really common back then. Usually the real reason was the other manufactures, or the most influential of them didn't want to loose to a 4 cyl 18k machine, nor did they want to invest in that direction.

Now I'm going to go Google the real deal and hear what a 18k rpm engine sounds like.

Joel
rdt1953
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Posted: Thursday, November 15, 2018 - 12:16 PM UTC
Joel -

Glad to have your interest as always ! Although I am extremely anxious to get started on this it will be a bit yet as I am still focusing my attention on some 1/1
scale motorcycle stuff.
In the meantime I thought my fellow gear heads might like some more fuel for thought . I never tire of preaching about this bike so I hope I can be forgiven for pontificating once again.
Let's see - 18k RPM . That's 333 revolutions per second ?
peak HP approx 62 - 250 cc . Thats 248 HP/liter. One cylinder of Chrysler's street hemi displaced 872cc. If it had the same specific output it would need to make better than 1,700 horses.
Bore - 41mm or 1 5/8" approx
Stroke - 31mm or 1 7/32 approx

A stroke of 1 7/32" means the crank throw was less than 3/4".
A built up crank of less than 14 '' in length made up of 13 individual pieces -
none of which were larger than a domino.The machined jigs for the assembly of the crank weighed more than the entire bike's 250 lbs.
The camshafts were barrel shaped rather than cylindrical to minimize whip.

Amazing - here are a couple of pics.





designed with slide rules and drafting tables - machined without the benefit of CNC -

Thanks for looking ! Richard
Joel_W
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Posted: Thursday, November 15, 2018 - 01:01 PM UTC
Ricard,
Talk about a small package.

In my Enduro Karting days I ran a 6.1 Komet 2 cycle engine and max rpms was 6,900! Not much more then what I turned in my B which Redlined at 6,000.

Just can't comprehend 18,000 and it stayed together.

Joel
RussellE
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Posted: Thursday, November 15, 2018 - 09:00 PM UTC
watching with interest Richard!
rdt1953
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Posted: Friday, November 16, 2018 - 12:25 AM UTC
Glad to have another aboard from the land dan unduh !
rdt1953
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Posted: Thursday, February 28, 2019 - 12:06 PM UTC
Hi to all - I'm afraid I have not yet begun on the RC 166. In the manner of an excuse/explanation I offer up a photo of what has been taking up my spare time. I know it is a larger scale than usual for this site but since we are all likely gear heads here I thought some may find it interesting.



1972 Norton 750 Commando Combat Roadster. Work to date includes -

New main frame cradle to replace the original which had bad rust issues
thanks to Superstorm Sandy.

Newly built wheels in polished Stainless

Rotor drilled & Blanchard ground

Mastercylinder sleeved

All original chassis components stripped and refinished

All new bearings , bushes & seals in wheels , forks , swingarm &
headstock

All new bolts , nuts , axles, spindles etc in polished Stainless - all bolt
heads that can be seen have been domed on the lathe.

New Vernier type Isolastic engine /driveline mounts.

The RC 166 kit is calling to me very loudly but I am afraid I will lose
momentum on the 1/1 scale project if I start.

Thanks for looking in and I am sorry if I have disappointed anyone - It will happen eventually !

Cheers - Richard


Joel_W
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Posted: Friday, March 01, 2019 - 03:04 AM UTC
Richard,
You've done way more replacement work then I originally thought t you needed to do when we spoke last April, but the end results will be a practically new Norton 750. One certainly that is absolutely perfect in every way.

The motor is just amazing, and with you being a machinist (at Heart), every little piece will be absolutely perfect. And yes, I'm amazed that back then they designed, machined, and built masterpieces like this.

How long to you est. the restoration will take you to complete? And how badly have you gone over budget?

Joel
krow113
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British Columbia, Canada
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Posted: Friday, March 01, 2019 - 07:00 AM UTC
Brings back mems of my '72 Combat Commando , camo paint and Mk II Amals!
rdt1953
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Posted: Sunday, March 03, 2019 - 10:59 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Richard,
You've done way more replacement work then I originally thought t you needed to do when we spoke last April, but the end results will be a practically new Norton 750. One certainly that is absolutely perfect in every way.

The motor is just amazing, and with you being a machinist (at Heart), every little piece will be absolutely perfect. And yes, I'm amazed that back then they designed, machined, and built masterpieces like this.

How long to you est. the restoration will take you to complete? And how badly have you gone over budget?

Joel



Joel - Thanks for looking in . I imagine it will likely be another year to completion . As for the budget - I didn't plan one . I did not keep track of my expenses or time when I did my ES2 some years ago - I'm sure it would have been frightening ! I do need to tally my invoices on this one though in order to raise the value on my insurance . After the big soaking it got in Sandy ( tore down the gearbox today - no evidence of salt water intrusion ) they paid me a chunk of money but lowered the value and won't raise it until finished. You seldom get your money back on these resto projects - just like building models !
rdt1953
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Posted: Sunday, March 03, 2019 - 11:05 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Brings back mems of my '72 Combat Commando , camo paint and Mk II Amals!



Steve - thanks for looking in - nice to know I am not the only one with Norton Disease ! I've been admiring your work here as well -very impressive ! If I knew I would live to 150 or so I'd like to tackle the Brough and sidecar from MFH.

Cheers - Richard
Joel_W
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Posted: Sunday, March 03, 2019 - 12:27 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Richard,
You've done way more replacement work then I originally thought t you needed to do when we spoke last April, but the end results will be a practically new Norton 750. One certainly that is absolutely perfect in every way.

The motor is just amazing, and with you being a machinist (at Heart), every little piece will be absolutely perfect. And yes, I'm amazed that back then they designed, machined, and built masterpieces like this.

How long to you est. the restoration will take you to complete? And how badly have you gone over budget?

Joel




Richard,

I'm still amazed at how precise you are with every facet of the build. Lets hope no more hurricanes.

We've been in our house for 40 years, and had a good 6 major hurricane and the only damage we got was from Gloria when a tree went through the roof of our garage. Every body on the block stood in the street and looked, and not one person offered to help. We'll the jokes on them as all of them have moved. We're the longest residents on our block by years.

Joel

Joel - Thanks for looking in . I imagine it will likely be another year to completion . As for the budget - I didn't plan one . I did not keep track of my expenses or time when I did my ES2 some years ago - I'm sure it would have been frightening ! I do need to tally my invoices on this one though in order to raise the value on my insurance . After the big soaking it got in Sandy ( tore down the gearbox today - no evidence of salt water intrusion ) they paid me a chunk of money but lowered the value and won't raise it until finished. You seldom get your money back on these resto projects - just like building models !

RussellE
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Posted: Monday, March 04, 2019 - 09:52 PM UTC
nice 1:1 scale bike Richard !
rdt1953
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Posted: Wednesday, October 30, 2019 - 01:12 PM UTC
A belated thanks to all for their interest in a thread that seems to be taking a different course. No model work of any sort ( other than increasing the stash here and there - including Tamiya's new P 38 - the first non - Japanese aircraft I have bought in a long time ! )
The Commando project has all of my leisure time attention and a great deal of my pocketbook as well but the RC 166 kit still beckons.
So at this point the gearbox , cylinder head , bottom end & primary drive have all been rebuilt by yours truly.
Gearbox - all new bearings, bushings, seals and springs. Inner and outer covers reworked by hand with files, various grades of silicone carbide papers and two stages on the buffer.
Cylinder head - Soda blasted , new valve guides, valves, springs, collars , collets , seats lapped .
Cylinders honed - good bores still on standard bore.
Bottom end - crankcases soda blasted , new main bearings , crank disassembled -cooked , oil ways cleaned , new blanking screws, new crank bolts , rods gone over for nicks, new big end shells, new rod bolts .
original Hepolite pistons in excellent condition , new rings , circlips.
new timing chain , new oil pump , seals, new tach drive, new timing chain tensioner, new reed valve type crankcase breather and of course all new gasketing. New points, auto advance springs & static timed on bench.
Timing chest cover and primary covers given same workover and polishing as gearbox cover.
Oil tank sent to Colorado Norton works for boot camp - returned as a much improved soldier.
All above now back in chassis .
Next up carbs & air box & oil lines and the on to the electrical system - not my strongest skill set .






Thanks for looking - back to modeling one day !
Cheers - Richard
Dixon66
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Posted: Thursday, October 31, 2019 - 01:17 AM UTC
Richard, as far as I'm concerned, it is a 1:1 scale multi-media kit with fully operational functions.

Seriously, it looks great. You'll need to post video once you get that engine running. Norton's have such a distinct sound.
Joel_W
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Posted: Thursday, October 31, 2019 - 02:03 AM UTC
Richard,
The amount and level of work you've accomplished to date is just mind boggling. A true restoration to the highest degree. I'm really looking forward to your post that the engine has been test run, and maybe a Vid to go along with it.

Joel
Hohenstaufen
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Posted: Thursday, October 31, 2019 - 04:17 AM UTC
I looked at a build of the Tamiya Honda in a magazine the other day, complete with all the add-ons. The chain looks interesting, I don't envy you that!
The Norton is looking fantastic so far - much cleaner than my '71 Fastback. I'm a bit surprised you didn't go for electronic ignition though, I have to say it helps starting and slow running is much better. Mine will tick over almost from cold. I'd also recommend using Mk III Isolastics if it's not too late. They are much easier to adjust.
I'm also working on a 1/1 project - my 1951 Vincent Rapide. The big ends went which is a specialised and very expensive job on a Vincent (£2000 nearly for two Carillo rods, new crank pin and mainshafts, then pressing them all together).
Got to say your workshop looks a lot cleaner, lighter and tidier than mine!
rdt1953
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Posted: Thursday, October 31, 2019 - 10:18 AM UTC
Thanks Gents for the interest and compliments. Very much looking forward to the day I get to light up engine once again.
To answer Steve’s concerns -
I considered electronic ignition and may turn to it in the future but chose standard for now for two reasons- One being that I understand it better than electronics and the other being that in all the time I ran the bike it never let me down . Always started in one or two kicks and ran beautifully with exception of idle issues when hot and that I attribute to the worn slides in the carbs. To that end I have purchased new Amal Premiers with hard anodized slides which should fix that problem.
I did indeed install the later style Isolastics with vernier adjustments.
Cheers- Richard
Joel_W
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Posted: Friday, November 01, 2019 - 09:29 AM UTC
Richard,
Not exactly sure what all those parts are for, but it sure sounds like once done, it will be better then when it was a brand new bike.

Joel